Being Grounded

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[Ace]

While awaiting the parts department to send things, I do have a question on grounded electrical outlets. 
And, no, I don't need to see a video suggesting I should spread Arctic Silver on my finger before inserting it into the plug...

In our neck of the woods, we have just two options for high speed wired internet, since our phone lines can't handle a DSL arrangement.  Either Comcast Cable to the house, or ATT Uverse.  A little more background: we have an antenna and so can get free HDTV with our local stations, and have no interest in cable TV or internet phone.  So only the PC internet connection is sought.  We're still on Earthlink dialup, so you can imagine.

Comcast did what seems to be it's customary "moving price point" as I searched them: special of 6 months at $19.95 per month. Plus 5 for modem rental.  Which is a lie, as it's based on actually already having some Comcast service.. (and so to add on).  so the actual neighborhood rate is $57 per month.  Plus $5 for modem.. And probably goes up to who knows what after a day or so.

Which leaves ATT, at $35 or so a month.  Problem being: we already had them out once, and they refused installation as the room the computer is in does NOT have "grounded plugs."  Normal 2 prong.  They keep that bit of criteria well hid, and you can only stumble upon it like we did, or by seeking out their tech support site.  Only mention there is a photo of what's "wrong" (power strip, 2 prong, etc.) and a view of an outlet with 3 prong plugs.

From my research, there seems to be some argument of what constitutes a "grounded plug."  Some suggest having  holes is it (and doesn't matter much if there's actually a ground connection, behind the scenes).  Others note a ground wire, maybe to the outlet box.  Others insist that wire had better travel to some water pipe somewhere, to really really be grounded. 

Anyone have an opinion on what really would be best, as it looks like we need to rewire at least one to be able to do the ATT thing...?  I also have read that they're NOT concerned with equipment protection; but just (your) personal safety and some comments that TV reception can be affected by non grounded plug-in.   But we did find they're insistent (and don't want to just get some "cosmetic" fix and find out it still isn't enough...).

Thanks; I'm pretty good at installing outlet and switchplate covers, but that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge.

ArcticAce

[scuzzy]

You have one of three options:

1. Do nothing
2. Rewire from the circuit box to a new 3-prong outlet, with the proper 3-conduit cable
3. Run only a ground wire to a new 3-prong outlet, with the other end connected to a squirrel buried 6-feet under. Or better, a water pipe.

Apply a thin coat of alcohol and drink Arctic Silver.

Scuzzy; This 15-second YouTube video shows exactly how to do it.

[Bill]

I would suggest before your consider re-wiring that you turn off the circut breaker or loosen the fuse for the room, take off the outlet cover and remove the receptacle from the electrical box.  You maybe surprised to find a ground wire curled up in the box and simply not connected because the receptacle itself doesn't have a connection.  I have found this situation twice in an older house.  If you're lucky, you only need to purchase a new receptacle with a ground connection and, of course, install it.

I am assuming the house is wired with Romex wire.  If the house is wired with Bx there is another choice.  Bx can be identified as the wires come to the box in a metal cable shield.  Romex has typically a braided fiber shield that is covered in plastic.  
If Bx has been used you can in fact run a bare copper wire from the ground screw on a new receptacle to the metal shielding for the wire, wrap the ground wire around the Bx shield and solidly tape it in place.  The Bx shield is grounded to the fuse box.
Edit:  This is a better definition for Bx:

Metal-Armored Cable-
Armor-wrapped cable is commonly called BX, a trade name. It has an outer layer of flexible galvanized steel that contains two or three wires. Each wire is individually wrapped with paper. If the cable does not have a ground wire, the metal sheathing serves as a ground whenever it comes in contact with a metal junction, switch, and outlet box.


Bill

[pat]

Yep, same here older house with no ground wires. I do have the BX cable Bill mentioned and for those outlets, I used a green grounding screw that I drilled a hole for in my metal outlet box. Personally I don't think it's as good as an actual ground wire, but it's better than tearing out the walls.

Where it was possible I have ran some new wiring.

I have read about using a GFI outlet or GFI breaker at the box to substitute for a ground. You may want to read up on that some or check with the provider of your service. They must be labeled "GFI PROTECTED, NO EQUIPMENT GROUND" .

Here is one of a very many articles, http://www.handymanwire.com/articles/ground1.html

Looks like they may not be the best for surge suppressors.

[Ace]

Thanks guys; I don't think I've ever read such vehement arguments as I have on people debating wiring...  Yours make perfect sense so I'll investigate further and see what's best next.  We do have squirrels outside, but I don't know that I can lure one inside and get him to cooperate.

Ace; I suppose if I wrap a ground wire around a peanut, and then one of them, it could do the trick.

[Bill]

If the GFCI approach is acceptable to AT&T, a company named Hubbell and maybe some others make a GFCI receptacle that includes a surge protector.  You could then use a simple power strip to accommodate your equipment.

Google: Hubbell GFCI and Surge Suppression Receptacles

Bill

[Ace]

In some of my reading of websites that carried arguments among "electricians" I remember some saying the GFCI units weren't "really" grounded outlets and others saying "of course they are" (usually followed by "you idiot").  ATT did indicate that just because something had 3 holes didn't necessarily mean it was grounded, so that's part of my motivation to be sure I wind up with "really really grounded" outlets so there's no argument and another wasted appointment.

Ace; oh, and my other stuff is UPSing it's way to me.

[Bill]

For my additional 2 cents, I like Pat's approach to ground the outlet to the electrical box with copper wire, assuming you have Bx wiring.   Most metal boxes have some pre-existing holes either in the back or on the side.

[Buffalo2102]

You have one of three options:

1. Do nothing
2. Rewire from the circuit box to a new 3-prong outlet, with the proper 3-conduit cable
3. Run only a ground wire to a new 3-prong outlet, with the other end connected to a squirrel buried 6-feet under. Or better, a water pipe.

4. Move to the UK where all outlets are grounded.

You can't get ATT here though

Buff; Just go to the outlet mall..........

[pat]

Buff; Just go to the outlet mall..........

That is funny, made me laugh out loud...

[Bill]

In your situation if you simply installed the GFI it wouldn't be grounded, but because it is a circuit breaker it would shut off power to the outlet in case of a problem. 
That's why I''d ask AT&T before I went that way.

 
Bill

[JA]

GFI is not functional unless all three wires are present.
Same deal with a good quality surge protector like my Triplite model.

Don't mess with any other solution except the right one.. IE, the correct one.  It will serve you well over time, as opposed to likely having problems with half-baked solutions.

I am telling you this from an installer's POV.
Been there and done it.

Yeah, and having said that, you need to get it in gear and hire an electrician or DIY and run a new circuit from the breaker to the room.
Come up the outside if needed!

But now for the dirty little secret: shhhhh!

Here is a simple solution that will work, cost next to nothing, and pass the test of the cable installer.

Get a pro quality (easier to install) 3 prong outlet.
One with multiple (dual sets) push-in holes for the 12 gage wire or 14 if you have 14.

If you have copper wire, then get one made for copper wire.
If you happen to have aluminum wire, get one made for aluminum wire!!! (Very important and code)  This is a genuine safety concern, so do it. Big fire hazard when using the wrong outlet.

Now to violate code and pull off the electrical coup of the decade there in Michiana:::
  wait for it, it will rock your sock.....












Wire black to brass/ gold.
Wire white to neutral/ silver.
Jumper the neutral over to the green ground screw.

This will give an outlet that will test good, as the neutral and the ground are the same exact circuit.
Its just that there are normally two separate wires (white and un-insulated) running from the breaker box to the outlet.

Both wires are attached to the giant grounding bus bar of the breaker box.

Buy an LED three prong circuit tester for a few bucks and plug it into the new outlet.  It will be fooled into indicating all the correct connections are made.

The tech will no doubt have one of those testers.
The tester has LED lights and a code listing to say good, bad and ugly.

You will need to verify the black wire is indeed the hot lead!
You can do this by merely hooking it up as above, and the tester will tell you if it is correct.  Switch white and black if necessary and it will test OK.

In many homes, the black has been fooled with by well-meaning DIY's and the black and white have been switched somewhere along the wiring system.  Yes, it happens all the time!!

This is not up to code, so don't expect the city inspector to drop in and
give you code cudos.
But it is as safe as what you have now and fills the bill if you cannot run a new three wire Romex.

But a good reason to run the new Romex is to do it right the first time.
When home sale time comes, it will have to be corrected if they spot it.

And you can run a dedicated wire feed that is sure to handle all your computer needs in that room.
You room's circuit is already on with other rooms, so it will not be a full dedicated feed that is better for sensitive electronics... like you.
I mean like your bottle of Merlot.
I mean your computer.

[Ace]

Shoot.. I stopped at two outlet malls last night and I didn't find a dang thing that would work.  Especially the framing shop, the UPS store, that dentist's office and the Pools and Spa.  You'd think electrical outlets in pools would have to be grounded.  Guess I'll keep looking.  Hopefully I'll find one with a sandwich shop, so at least I can pick up dinner if not electrical supplies.

I agree with Johnny's suggestion to get an electrician.  I'm ok in removing the cover, and looking at it, but past that point I'm tapped.  No; I'm not considering running a wire to myself and going that route.  I don't care what happens to the squirrel, but I won't stand for it.  Once I saw "run a new circuit from the breaker" I tuned out.  For one thing, we have a fuse box.  for another, I'm not running anything anywhere.  I work on this side of the wall, only. 

Ace; I hope I don't get confused between the wires in the PC and any wires in the wall.

[JA]

Well, Ace, the light of a new sunny day has kicked my brain once again.
You got my late night advice, so here comes the sun.
(Richie Havens is going to perform in my area pretty soon!)  

Time Warner Cable has a low end service that they never tell you about.
Perhaps ATT Uverse and Comcast have one, as well.
Its worth a call to each to ask and press the issue till they fess up.

It does not require any other cable services, like phone and TV.

I found this out from a third party seller of the services of Time Warner, but then confirmed it with the actual company's sales and customer rep.

Worth a shot to get cable for a sing song.
Be sure to say you only want the low end, beginning level Internet service.  Make sure it is a forever price, not an intro price.

Mine was $20/ month, no other service needed, and was the everyday price.  So, there you go and here we are, back where we started in Michiana.

So glad to have you on board again, Ace.
Who pulled you back into the boat?

[Ace]

Good suggestion, J, but they don't exist here.  Stupidly enough, there are options in the little burgs around me that are more backward in most ways (Bristol, Elkhart).  That's what's nuts about where I live.  No Verizon, no Time Warner, no nuthin' except the two mentioned, Dish, and plugging one of those USB thingys in the desktop.

Ace; in the middle of nowhere.

[JA]

I was suggesting calling ATT U and  Comcast, as you said those are the two choices.


The USB thingies might be a good bet, or very easy road to the city for you.

Unlimited wireless access bytes might cost $50-60/ month, but it is painless other than to the wallet.  Get it on the same carrier as your cell.

[Ace]

Ok; I thought you figured Time Warner might be worth a go.  Comcast doesn't have any bargains, as they promote "bargains" that really aren't... That's where I started, and ended, with them.  U-Verse is what it is, and there aren't any other packages (since our phone lines don't do DSL or normal cheaper means).  Cell phone is Virgin Mobile, so nothing on that end.  My understanding is U-Verse runs the fiber optic near the home, but then actually connects through the copper phone wires. 

Ace: wallet pain is enough, for me.

[JA]

I want to make it clear what to try.

Call AT&T and SPECIFY that you want the unadvertised low end Internet service. Find out if they have it, as Time Warner kept it secret to promote the more expensive packages.

I call it deception by omission.

JA; omitted and admitted

[Ace]

I'll pop the question, but my thinking is ATT doesn't have any other option, for us, than U-Verse.  No cable, nothing just through phone lines.  So cheapest possible U-Verse would seem the only thing they can do.   Naturally, we're looking for high speed, so also want a decent delivery on that end too (should low-end be the slow end).

I'll try to compile all the descriptions of what kind of wiring exists behind these walls, and see if that makes things clearer on how ground works.

Ace; if I had a garden I'd grow ground beef.

[Bill]

Easiest thing to do is look at the fuse box and determine what type of wire is emerging from the top or sides. Or, take a picture and show us.

Bill

[Ace]

Hadn't thought of that; mostly because I'm not used to looking at wiring and trying to understand it.  I could poast a photo, and just hope nobody thinks that's my Antec torn apart.
You should come by and bundle the wires and cables; you do great work behind the scenes.

Ace; dial up high speed is when it connects.  Slow is when it says "You are working offline."

[Bill]

Thanks, unfortunately I have developed a severe allergy to snow 

Bill

[JA]

As I outlined in detail above, "Jumper the neutral over to the green ground screw."

[Ace]

Bill's right; we don't have much green ground at this time.  And I haven't worn a Jumper in years.

Ace; although I do have a kicky pair of culottes.

[JA]

 
Well, there you go.
Mixing electrical and poetry is akin to mixing oil and water... or even worse, water and electricity.

Join Bill in the South, and leave your aversion to snow behind.
Pick up some green!

[Ace]

Officially, I'm in the South (Bend).  Not that you'd know it from the air temps or ground cover.
You know what's funny though is that Indy is going to get pummeled today by snow, but we're not.  And my sister in law in DC has gotten absolutely buried in snow this year; we haven't had a storm that equals the batch they've gotten (and more to come).  That's a Southern City, and I know it's paralyzed by any accumulation.

We get Lake Effect at times, but Pat's more likely to bear the brunt of that, too.
Ace; I hate Winter as much as Bubba does/did

[pat]

Put me in the "hate winter" camp as well. Such a nice day yesterday, looks like a lot of folks will be grounded today with the new storm rolling in. It was sort of nice to get missed by the last storm, knew it just couldn't last.

I'm all set though, got the blower all filled up and pointing in the right direction.

I was down to the lake Sunday, strolled out on the ice all the way out to open water. The waves were splashing up against the ice bergs and it looked pretty cool, should have taken along my camera.

pat; soon to be buried by lake enhanced snow.................

[Ace]

It sounds dangerous to me to stroll out "to open water."  I think I would stop one step from "leaving solid ground."  I suppose I'll need to blow out our driveway later, at least if I ever want to see it for the rest of the week.

I did look at my fuse box; there are no visible wires, so that didn't tell me anything.  The weather maps and radar and satellite views aren't telling me much either, at least not anything pleasant.  Although it looked like the end of the system snow, soon.  I'm thinking we won't be seeing the first robin this week...

Ace; unless it's frozen solid and stuck to a car.

[JA]

Remove the cover panel to see the wires, or ID them as they exit the box.

If you know that little (to remove the cover), then you had better not try a cover removal.
Newbies get very nervous when working next to all those wires with a metal cover in hands.

Just go with my john A mazing fix (perhaps you saw it above?) and get it over with, Ace.   

And we are awaiting the snow from you, but its pretty lame so far.

I will stick with you on the shore while we watch Pat fall in... we can call for help.

[Ace]

Heck no I'm not pulling off some dang fuse box cover while the dang thing has fuses in it and who knows what behind it, not like I'm going to stick my head in there and find out.  Geez Louise, there's electricity in that thing.  And I don't get anywhere near high voltage, unless I'm up on a ladder holding a metal tree trimmer.
That's just crazy talk. 
The only thing worse would be walking out on ice, falling into water, while you're plugged in.

Ace; "get it over with" is exactly what I'm afraid of.